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Blanchimont
Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3423
Location: Finland
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:36 pm
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Quote: | Further, he clarified he doesn't believe that technology is inherently bad. “It's how people get to use it. For companies or people who choose to go the AI route to profit off it, there's a give and take.” Terada acknowledges that if the tool is free, the AI's data might not be free, as it might consume copyrighted material. “In those instances, there's a struggle to find the right balance.” Reiterating that the technology itself is not morally wrong, he encouraged the audience to consider it positively. “It really depends on who uses it and how they use it. That's my opinion.” |
Quite a good take on the topic. I agree.
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Gem-Bug
Joined: 10 Nov 2018
Posts: 1186
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:45 pm
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"Designer Katsuya Terada Addresses AI During The Very Last Question Of A Live Drawing Session", more like. I found the previous 3/4 of the session/article much more interesting then his opinion of AI, to be honest(though his take is a good one).
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MarshalBanana
Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 5290
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:55 pm
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He seemed to have chosen his words carefully, not criticising it but also not giving it a full endorsement. I suppose he didn't want to draw ire from either side of the argument.
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jdnation
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1992
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 3:20 pm
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There is a case where AI is a problem for easily mimicking off of copyrighted works. But an equal argument can be made if for example, many artists themselves find inspiration and learn by imitating the work of other artists.
But AI has incredible possibilities.
For example, if an artist already has their own style and library of work, they can train an AI tool specifically on their own artwork and use it to help alleviate their workload and to meet manga deadlines on time.
I think AI will be especially awesome if it can be used to do the in-between animation work once the animator has the key animation done. This would either make productions faster and/or reduce the animator's workload + costs.
The indy animation scene could greatly benefit from this if small teams can produce work on par with what could only be done by big budget studios.
It's rather exciting! Often times it's just fun to see what the AI comes up with whether that has commercial value or not, especially in the realm of exploring concept art.
Some may feel this threatens established jobs like in-between animation farms or concept artists, but I think that also helps level the playing field for a greater variety of smaller animation houses budding up and those same talented people now moving on to key roles and project leads with the AI doing the old grunt work. There will be a period of adjustment, but there is plenty of room for optimism!
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skafreak51
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 211
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:33 pm
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jdnation wrote: | It's rather exciting! Often times it's just fun to see what the AI comes up with whether that has commercial value or not, especially in the realm of exploring concept art.
! |
Just wait until everyone has access to the technology for free, and everyone and their mother can generate new comics, film, novels, music, etc, within seconds and no effort.
Just wait until you go on a streaming service like Netflix, but unlike that where you have 1000 movies to pick from, you have infinite movies to pick from, and there's so many that it's become impossible to actually pick something because you have no idea how good or bad it is, no one does, because there's so much content and 99% of it is half-assed garbage and no one is watching the same thing anymore.
You go to see what's trending in the manga community, but nothing is trending anymore. Because everyone is generating their own content, no one can relate anymore. You go to see this season's trending anime, but there are none.
Fandoms no longer exist. People won't be waiting for the next One Piece chapter, because it already exists whenever they want it. There is no excitement anymore, there's nothing to look forward to when it can already exist the moment it's thought of.
There won't be a year of anticipation for a movie you're really looking forward to. You will no longer go to artist alleys at conventions, because what's the point when you can just generate the exact thing you'd want to look at.
Creativity stops, no one with actual passion is creating anything now. You are a slave to the technology and can't escape it. No one will pay anyone to create anymore, so nothing will ever be made like that anymore.
Oh and by the way, you're dirt poor. AI has taken over every job field. There's barely any work anymore, which used to sound like heaven, except now it's hell. You can't work even though you need to earn a living. But that's okay, right? You have all the free time in the world. To do nothing. You can't afford to do anything fun. Forget about something like travel. Maybe you'll play a game with some friends? No one is playing games with each other, they're playing their own generated games. Forget about using your free time to develop anything creative. You won't be drawing, writing, expressing yourself in any way anymore.
Where in 2023 we're already approaching a point of entertainment overload, it's about to explode into an unmaneuverable sea of content where it's become literally impossible to distinguish what content is actually good or poor because there's just too much of it.
Sounds like hell to me! On one hand, I do understand it's better to approach everything optimistically, but on the other, I think it's absolutely laughable that people think this is going to do anything but destroy one of the things that actually makes us human. We're barrelling towards making ourselves extinct, both literally (in terms of the planet) and figuratively (in terms of having any reason to actually live.)
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kotomikun
Joined: 06 May 2013
Posts: 1205
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 10:26 pm
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skafreak51 wrote: | Just wait until everyone has access to the technology for free, and everyone and their mother can generate new comics, film, novels, music, etc, within seconds and no effort. |
To some degree, that's already possible. The problem is that everything it produces is some combination of extremely bad and extremely derivative (a lot of AI drawings that don't look completely terrible were made using a specific human-made drawing or sketch as a base).
Everyone seems to be assuming we're on a slippery slope to AI doing absolutely everything that can be done on a computer better than humans can; but this is quite a stretch given that these systems have no understanding whatsoever of what they're doing. They run mathematical transformations to recursively generate a sequence of predictive text (or images, or audio). Autocomplete. They don't know what words mean, what images represent. As a result, they have inherent limitations that will not magically disappear with increased processing power. It's difficult enough to make good art with an entire team of human brains. Trying to pull that off using Internet Hivemind Simulator 2000 is going to be a nightmare.
It's still going to disrupt a lot of things, but on a less apocalyptic level. It makes cheating on homework assignments (where you only need something passable, not highly innovative, and you're often required to imitate something) extremely easy... but then, kids have copied each other's homework since the dawn of time. Some bizarre problems are cropping up, like people commissioning artists for cheap sketches so they can feed it into an AI for a discounted completed work. Increased supply of semi-acceptable-quality art decreases its value, but increases the market for it since it's more affordable (usually it still needs tweaking by a human to fix mistakes).
On the whole, I still think we'd be better off if this technology didn't exist, but that's true of a lot of things (nuclear bombs, for example), and none of the countless inventions people said would end the world and/or human happiness have managed to do it. Society is pretty resilient, for better or for worse.
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SciasSlash
Joined: 09 Jun 2015
Posts: 117
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:51 am
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skafreak51 wrote: | No one is playing games with each other, they're playing their own generated games. |
Everything else aside, why would this ever happen? Multiplayer games are popular for a reason.
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MarshalBanana
Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 5290
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 6:10 am
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jdnation wrote: | There is a case where AI is a problem for easily mimicking off of copyrighted works. But an equal argument can be made if for example, many artists themselves find inspiration and learn by imitating the work of other artists. |
The way a human does that is completely different from how an AI does it. Humans can not completely replicate someone else's work, there will always be something new added and something lost, AI just Xeroxes that work wholesale with no creative thinking or smash it together with another piece of work.
jdnation wrote: | I think AI will be especially awesome if it can be used to do the in-between animation work once the animator has the key animation done. This would either make productions faster and/or reduce the animator's workload + costs. |
In-betweening is how new animators hone their skills. Not only that but animators might want to have a specific way that the animation transitions from key drawing to key drawing, they might want to go off model to convey the illusion of movement better. All AI can do is create generic in-betweens that do the bare minimum, it doesn't know how the human eye will interoperate it during motion.
jdnation wrote: | It's rather exciting! Often times it's just fun to see what the AI comes up with whether that has commercial value or not, especially in the realm of exploring concept art.
Some may feel this threatens established jobs like in-between animation farms or concept artists, but I think that also helps level the playing field for a greater variety of smaller animation houses budding up and those same talented people now moving on to key roles and project leads with the AI doing the old grunt work. There will be a period of adjustment, but there is plenty of room for optimism! |
it's rather disingenuous to call concept art and in-betweening grunt work. you talk about it as if it is something people just have to put up with before they can finally get a worthwhile job in the industry. People spend their entire lives as concept artists because that's what they want to do, they are not going to like someone saying to them "Good news, you are no longer producing the concept art, the AI is. Now you can finally have that key role you never wanted".
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Vanadise
Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 485
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:38 am
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skafreak51 wrote: | Just wait until you go on a streaming service like Netflix, but unlike that where you have 1000 movies to pick from, you have infinite movies to pick from, and there's so many that it's become impossible to actually pick something because you have no idea how good or bad it is, no one does, because there's so much content and 99% of it is half-assed garbage and no one is watching the same thing anymore. |
This is a nightmare scenario, but fortunately, there are many reasons why it won't happen.
A big one is that courts have already ruled you can't copyright machine-generated works. Big studios are not going to start producing & selling shows that are entirely computer-generated because it would be impossible to make money off of them; there is nothing legally stopping anybody from giving out copies to all their friends for free, or even for other big companies to take and re-release it through their own publishers. Disney has fought hard to make copyright laws as strict as they are because their profit depends on them, but none of that works here.
Even if that was true, it'd really only mean that you can't get a creative job at a megacorp any more. People fundamentally want to create art and have done so throughout history even when they can't profit off of it at all; other people also appreciate and support artists, and are gladly willing to do so as long as it's feasible. It can be tough to make a living as an independent artist, yes, but it will always be something people want to do and to support, and if machine-generated content takes over at the highest corporate levels, I'd predict there are a significant number of people who will intentionally refuse to support that and choose to support human artists instead. Go to a furry convention and you'll find a venue filled with people who make a living as independent artists, and people who support them specifically because they're not a giant corporation.
I also avoid referring to this as "AI" because it is not intelligent in any way. This is applied statistics and machine learning, fields of mathematics which have existed for several decades, simply being applied in new directions. Any notions of it actually being intelligent or learning the same way humans do are pure propaganda by people who are either trying to make a profit off of it or have watched too many apocalyptic sci-fi movies. The important thing here is that this has been done before in other fields, and it can produce output that is about 80% as good as a human can do, but it will never get all the way there. Despite a lot of very smart people spending years focusing on it, machine-generated images are still filled with fundamental issues that any skilled human can notice, and every attempt at making them "better" actually just makes them more accurately copy the material they used as training input. These models also quickly fall apart and start generating garbage if you give them too wide a variety of input, or if you train them on their own output; they cannot grow over time like a human can.
It is true that as we progress into the future, more and more jobs are going to become automated. That's the history of humanity -- just look at how much the industrial revolution changed the world. In our current economy and culture, that means a lot of people who currently work repetitive, menial jobs are going to become unemployed. That is not a reason to resist automation; it's a reason to push for stronger social safety nets and a society in which people don't need to work simply to survive. (which we have the resources to do right now, but our government is controlled by people who prioritize profit above all else, and capitalism requires poverty to exist in order for it to work, but that's getting into a different subject)
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Megumi Chisato
Joined: 04 Aug 2021
Posts: 37
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:16 pm
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skafreak51 wrote: | Oh and by the way, you're dirt poor. AI has taken over every job field. There's barely any work anymore, which used to sound like heaven, except now it's hell. You can't work even though you need to earn a living. But that's okay, right? You have all the free time in the world. To do nothing. You can't afford to do anything fun. |
Ironically enough, this is precisely why many people are excited for AI. It's the big disruptor. It has the potential to really upset the status quo and reshape society. Currently, society is structured in such a way that any attempt to change things for the better will disadvantage people in the interim, making most resistant to the change, perpetuating the status quo.
However, once a large enough majority of people no longer have to work, capitalism will cease to function. Who will have the money to buy the products? Be it UBI or some other system that doesn't function based on capitalism, society as a whole will have no choice but to change, evolve, and adapt. Far from the apocalyptic hellscape you're envisioning, many see it as a step closer to a tangible utopia.
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jdnation
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1992
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:51 pm
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MarshalBanana wrote: | The way a human does that is completely different from how an AI does it. Humans can not completely replicate someone else's work, there will always be something new added and something lost, AI just Xeroxes that work wholesale with no creative thinking or smash it together with another piece of work. |
This is exactly why AI will never be better as an end unto itself. But as another tool in the hands of an artist, it has fascinating applications that will help take any artist's efforts further. People can distinguish true creativity from derivative works, even if they can't put things into words. The same is true now for many lazy films, comics and anime. I don't share skafreak51's apocalyptic vision in as far as AI applied to creative works. Nobody will care about the thousands of Xeroxed products. The good quality stuff with a visionary artist's hand will rise to the top. Heck we can even have AI sorting it. And just as with the move to digital tools, traditional artwork has not disappeared. In fact it commands higher interest and prices now for authentic physical paint on canvas art.
Quote: | In-betweening is how new animators hone their skills. Not only that but animators might want to have a specific way that the animation transitions from key drawing to key drawing, they might want to go off model to convey the illusion of movement better. All AI can do is create generic in-betweens that do the bare minimum, it doesn't know how the human eye will interoperate it during motion. |
True. But this same argument was also leveraged at Photoshop. How are artists supposed to hone their skills when they can use the 'Undo' button? And did outsourcing in-betweening to Korea destroy the Japanese key animator's ability to work? AI, like Photoshop won't be an end unto itself. As you yourself point out, there will be instances where the AI cannot perform a task, requiring the artist to apply their trade. There will be varying levels of talent using AI just as with digital. Those who train the Old fashioned way will have an advantage, and there will even be new ways of training developed for in-betweening so that future artists can understand the art of animation. People can tell good animation from bad just as in the days of Macromedia FLASH. Those who want to get better and stand out can't just half-ass an AI algorithm and call it a day. As with training staff for key animation, studios and schools will reserve and train their in-house talent to still learn and perform the tasks of classical animators, and there will be demand for that talent despite the production process outsourcing the bulk of the work to Korea or an AI, as at the end of the day, there are always corrections that need to be made to the Korean or AI product that comes back in.
Quote: | it's rather disingenuous to call concept art and in-betweening grunt work. you talk about it as if it is something people just have to put up with before they can finally get a worthwhile job in the industry. People spend their entire lives as concept artists because that's what they want to do, they are not going to like someone saying to them "Good news, you are no longer producing the concept art, the AI is. Now you can finally have that key role you never wanted". |
Only if that's how you chose to read what I said. Don't concept artists use reference materials and photography in their work? How is leveraging AI any different? If the director wants some quick sketches one fast, the concept artist can reduce his personal 'grunt work' by leveraging AI to create an angle of a set already trained on the library of visuals and cinsistent set decoration for the film, background art that needs to remain consistent and the draw in only the new layer of details and characters that the director wants. AI is perfectly supplemental and will greatly enhance a concept artist's job, not eliminate the position altogether. Concept artists, like cinematographer are useful precisely for the personal knowledge they bring regarding technical understandings of detail, lighting, composition etc. AI doesn't replace that because AI doesn't understand art, it just does what it is told to do within limitations. A human creative will always be necessary, because otherwise it will always make something derivative and people will see that once the initial novelty of generated art wears off.
Any production that imagines that it will get away by 100% automating everything will be in trouble. At best, AI will reduce the staff numbers necessary for an average budgeted show, but as far as visual exploration goes, it is always better to have a variety of people exploring different interpretations to discover what works best. AI by itself won't give you that.
There is no reason to fear skafreak51's scenario of too much garbage flooding the market any more than that human artists will be made obsolete. The market demand for quality and originality will filter out what's poor and uninteresting. If large studios destroy themselves with false hopes of AI, then the Indy houses will eat their lunch with a better understanding of the market.
I feel that the doom'n'gloom people are heavily overestimating what AI will ever philosophically be capable of. Computer music and autotune did not get rid of the need for real musicians, composers, or orchestras over the decades. It will be no different here.
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SparkTFS
Joined: 16 Feb 2021
Posts: 32
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:09 pm
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Megumi Chisato wrote: |
However, once a large enough majority of people no longer have to work, capitalism will cease to function. Who will have the money to buy the products? Be it UBI or some other system that doesn't function based on capitalism, society as a whole will have no choice but to change, evolve, and adapt. Far from the apocalyptic hellscape you're envisioning, many see it as a step closer to a tangible utopia. |
As much as that seems nice, I'm worried about a scenario where most creative work is done by IA while most humans are subject to heavy labor (as IA isn't good enough yet for that kind of job), without an opportunity to do something other than that.
It could be argued that people could stop buying stuff from big corporations after that disrruption, but all "captalism" needs to do is subvert that into showing people they need the corporations more than the other way around. Then, even more people are going to dispute even lower paying jobs.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that AI may not be so disrruptive like that in the next 10 years - to the point where corporations change their ways as drastically as in the Industrial Revolution. There's the possibility corporations can just adapt and make most of the population fight for a bone.
AI can only be as disrruptive as necessary for that revolution to happen if it's guaranteed it comes along with a change in society's consumerism (something I'm somewhat skeptical about, as there are a lot of companies excellent at making people think they need things they actually don't need).
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Gem-Bug
Joined: 10 Nov 2018
Posts: 1186
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:55 pm
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Megumi Chisato wrote: | Ironically enough, this is precisely why many people are excited for AI. It's the big disruptor. It has the potential to really upset the status quo and reshape society. Currently, society is structured in such a way that any attempt to change things for the better will disadvantage people in the interim, making most resistant to the change, perpetuating the status quo.
However, once a large enough majority of people no longer have to work, capitalism will cease to function. Who will have the money to buy the products? Be it UBI or some other system that doesn't function based on capitalism, society as a whole will have no choice but to change, evolve, and adapt. Far from the apocalyptic hellscape you're envisioning, many see it as a step closer to a tangible utopia. |
This is only going to reinforce capitalism and the status quo. Anything anti-creative and anti-worker is essential anti-human. Folks need to stop believing things they read on twitter.
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Megumi Chisato
Joined: 04 Aug 2021
Posts: 37
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 4:02 pm
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Gem-Bug wrote: | This is only going to reinforce capitalism and the status quo. Anything anti-creative and anti-worker is essential anti-human. Folks need to stop believing things they read on twitter. |
How?
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SciasSlash
Joined: 09 Jun 2015
Posts: 117
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:17 pm
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ai is mostly focused on automating art and voice acting, there's relatively little work being done on automating things like heavy labor.
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